Episode Transcript
[00:00:07] Speaker A: Hello there, fellow humans. Thanks for tuning in today. I'm Jaska Joost and this is interview with you today. Not yet with you today with Elise Condamin.
Elise is the first brave heroine in my series of guests who come to talk about their infertility journey. She is a big advocate of breaking the taboo and stigma of fertility issues and a strong believer in raising the awareness and normalizing the infertility conversations.
She does practice what she preaches so we will hear all the raw truths of her journey, including serious anxiety struggles. At the same time, she is so inspirational and lovely that despite the serious topic, you will hear giggles and come out with hope, even if infertility is at this moment, your soft spot. So let's go.
Hello and welcome to my podcast. Thanks for being here. Today I have a special guest. Her name is Elise Condamin. She's French, she lives in Luxembourg. She's 41 and she's married. This year they will celebrate ten years with her husband. And she has two children, a girl who is four and a half years old and a baby boy who is almost five months, a big boy. And she came here today to discuss an important topic and that is how she got to get the children. It's thing that we are very passionate about, both of us. So welcome, Elise, thanks so much for coming.
[00:02:17] Speaker B: Good morning, Jessica. Thank you for having me.
[00:02:20] Speaker A: It's my pleasure. Recently, I have had this urge to open the topic of infertility and I reached out to the community, which was a big support for me at the time when I struggled myself with pregnancy loss. And Elise was one of the ladies that was willing to come and very excited to come and spread the knowledge and her story. So I'm very grateful. She was one of them and the first, moreover. So I'm happy that I get to also interview her first. Elise, tell me about the journey that led to your children.
[00:03:03] Speaker B: Yes. So, as you mentioned, me and my husband, we got married in 2014.
At the time, we were living in Sweden, in Stockholm, pursuing careers, I would say traveling a lot and enjoying our life together because we had been in a relationship long distance for two years before my husband came to live with me. So we wanted to enjoy the time we had together before forming a family.
So we decided really to start things and start trying seriously, I would say around 2015, I went to my gynecology at the time who run very basic tests just to see if everything was in working order and everything was fine. And so he told us, give yourselves a year of trying just like that. And you know, if nothing happens, we will meet again and we will explore if something is wrong. But so far, as far as I can see, you seem to be healthy and everything is good. So we started things. I was 32, 32 years old, so seems like not too, too early, but at the same time, not geriatric, as I would be called later down the line.
So we started, and it's actually something pretty ironic, because you protect yourself your whole, I would say, young adult life from pregnancy, and the minute you want it, you think it's gonna happen right away, as soon as you give up the pill. So the first month, I was, like, super excited, taking a pregnancy test every month, a few days earlier, because I have no patients, and it was negative and negative and negative, and we started to be a bit worn out by the weight, and then we gave it a year. So we waited to the time period that the doctor had set, and I met him again, and this time he referred us to his, I would say his colleagues at ChL, because my regular gynaecologist is in ChL to do just exploratory tests and see if there's anything we could do to speed things up.
So I was 33 at the time, and first of all, there was a big waiting time before meeting the doctor. So in between that time, you continued trying, but nothing was happening.
And I was doing a lot of would say, non medicinal approaches, like reflexology. And I've done everything, I think took supplements, like coq ten and maca, and my husband as well, tried. Yeah, all. All the things.
Litho therapy, aromatherapy, anything you could think of. I think I've tried.
Been to the osteoporosis, acupuncture, of course, yes. Everything. Because I really didn't want to have any sort of treatments, because I have a complicated relationship with my body. I have an autoimmune disease, and my body and me haven't always been friends. So it was a hard decision for me to have again, to rely on doctors, to get to where I wanted to reach in my life. But anyway, when you're ahead, desire for family is stronger. You have to come to terms with that as well.
So we did all the tests and everything came back perfectly normal for both of us. No identified issue whatsoever, which was a relief and a question mark. To this day, six years later, we still do not know why we can't conceive on our own.
It's mind boggling, really. Very frustrating.
[00:07:20] Speaker A: There is a name for it? No.
[00:07:21] Speaker B: They call it unexplained infertility.
You will never know.
[00:07:28] Speaker A: I don't know. For me, it sounds like it's actually worse.
[00:07:34] Speaker B: You don't know. They give you the stats. They say one third of infertility comes from the women, one third comes from the men, and one third is just. We don't know.
[00:07:44] Speaker A: Nobody knows.
[00:07:45] Speaker B: So we were in the. We don't know. And so the course of action for us was IUI. So this is intrauterine insemination. So it's basically we do a very mild ovarian stimulation for the women, and they prep the husband's sperm to really keep only the very good one to give the better chances of fertilization.
Then they monitor the woman's cycle very closely. And when ovulation is there, you have to come to the hospital, and they will inject in the uterus, the sperm. And this has better odds of working than a regular intercourse.
[00:08:30] Speaker A: Is that like. Because I didn't know.
Do they also really. Because you said to pick the best sperm, so they do something with the sperm?
[00:08:39] Speaker B: Yes. In the morning, the father is coming to the hospital and giving a sample, and the lab is working on it until the moment it's injected into the woman's body. So they really make a prep to keep the best ones, like the fastest and the ones that moved most, etcetera. So, yeah, I do. To give the better odds.
And then comes the two week wait, which is awful, where your mind is tricking you because you have a high dosage of progesterone, which can make you very sleepy or very sick, nauseous, and you think you're pregnant, or the day after you think you're not pregnant. And this goes on for two weeks, which seems like an eternity when you're in it.
And I think it's the worst part, waiting to know if it worked or not. The first attempt, we really had high hopes. I don't know why I had this, like, thought in my mind that we just needed a little smudge, you know, to get there because everything was normal. So with just the tiny help of medicine, it would be perfect. And we tested with the blood test, and it was negative. So this was a big, big disappointment for both of us.
And we fell very high, you know, like, we thought it was going to work on the first try, and we realized, no, it's going to be more difficult than that. And then.
So they told us to try several times with iuis. The more you try, the higher your odds are.
So actually, it's not a bad thing to do. More. You can do up to six iuis in Luxembourg, which are partly covered by CN's.
So we went and done a second try.
You also have to navigate this in between with your own life and travels and a lot of things from work.
To be there on the day of the insemination and to also do the daily shots because you have to inject your hormones.
Some people can use a nurse. I prefer to do it myself, to have a bit more flexibility. And I don't mind needles. So I was okay with that.
So we did a second try.
This time around we had a positive beta, but. So I was at work, actually, when I got the results from the lab. I went to the lab at like 07:00 a.m. and got the results as I was in a meeting with colleagues. And I read on my phone and I saw this figure. It was 25, I think.
And so it was like positive, but very low. And my mind could not. Do you understand? Am I pregnant? Am I not pregnant? What does this mean? I was completely lost.
And you have to call the midwives in the afternoon, I think, from 02:00 so I called them and they told me it's positive. So you're pregnant, but it's lower than we would hope. So the next blood draw will be very important. And this has to be done in seven days. For me, that was eternity. So no way I could wait that long. Impossible. Plus, in France, where I come from, in the fertility centers, they do beta at HCG every other day to see the rising of the hcG. And that will be actually an important point for what comes next. So I did a second blood draw. I paid for it myself, without prescription. Two days later, and the beta had risen a lot.
So I was a bit like happy and excited and thinking, okay, this is going to be okay. It's just a slow start, but now it's good, you know, it's going to be good. It was 226, something like that. So I was optimistic. We were starting with my husband to dream of the baby, talking about baby names. We were like, gone really far, far gone. And a few days later, I have to do the blood draw from the hospital. So the one seven days later and I do it. And the figure is 227.
[00:13:11] Speaker A: So that's basically almost the same.
[00:13:13] Speaker B: Yes. So it had stopped growing and same thing. I'm at work, I get the notification on my phone that the results are in from the lab. I open it, and in the middle of the open space, I burst out crying and take my things and leave. Because I know what this means. It means it's stopped pregnancy, and it will not go further. But at the same time, I don't want to believe what I'm seeing, but I'm completely lost and overwhelmed and very sad and very hormonal from the drugs. So I have to go home. I just say, okay, something came up. I'm sorry, I have an emergency. I went home, and at 02:00 I call the midwives, and they tell me, oh, we see 227. Good. It's risen a lot. So that's positive. I was like, I don't understand. But look at the interior two days ago, it was 226.
And she said, I did not see that. I'm sorry. Oh, it's a stopped pregnancy. No, no, it stopped just like that, very cold, you know, and I was in tears over the phone, and I had a robot on the phone with me, so that was very upsetting, I must say. Part of the trauma, actually.
And so she told me, well, so you're going to miscarry in a few days. You stop the progesterone now and. Yeah, in a few days. Like a heavy period. Don't worry. And you can try next month.
Like, it's nothing, you know, first pregnancy test in, like, I don't know how many years of waiting and trying and hoping. Yeah, it's a heavy period. It's not even a miscarriage, you know, it's nothing.
[00:14:59] Speaker A: I hear this a lot about, like, the medical people not being sensitive. And I must say, from my experience, also to give some credit to the Luxembourgish Medical society, they were better afterwards. Yeah. But my experience was really, if we have time, I can then mention it later.
My doctor, I think she was a big part of that, that I got through, the difficulties that I have been through. She really made a big difference to me. She was like an angel.
[00:15:31] Speaker B: It's everything.
[00:15:32] Speaker A: A human. It's everything, really. She was absolutely professional, but at the same time, she really did the right thing at the right time, I think, way beyond her duty, you know, and it was little things, you know, but.
[00:15:46] Speaker B: Yeah, you know, so mine, too. For my son. Yeah, it was a big difference from my daughter to my son. Definitely.
[00:15:53] Speaker A: Yeah. We will probably circle back to it later.
[00:15:56] Speaker B: Of course. Yes.
[00:15:57] Speaker A: There's more to say. Okay. So then you had your heavy period.
[00:16:01] Speaker B: Yes, I was on holidays in Portugal with my husband. We thought, okay, we want to take our mind off things. We need a holiday. So we went to the south of Portugal and carried there in a hotel room. It was okay, actually. It was, like they said, uncomfortable and a heavy period.
But still pretty sad and traumatic.
[00:16:27] Speaker A: It's not. At this stage. It's not the physical problem.
[00:16:30] Speaker B: No, it's really physical.
[00:16:32] Speaker A: Is fine.
[00:16:33] Speaker B: See all your dreams shattered and hopes going away. So we took the time we needed a bit to heal. We did not try right away. We waited, I think, one month without doing nothing, no treatments, just to also get my body some rest because I was very tired from all the treatments. And we started again in April. So same protocol, daily injections, monitoring of ovulation. On ovulation day, we did the insemination.
And the funny thing, and this is what history also is keeping, is that my husband could not be there with me on the day of insemination. For insemination, it is not mandatory for the partner to be there. And he had a work thing, so he could not be there. And so I was on my own on this day. And I went to the appointment and had the insemination, you know, all alone, and then went up and went home and went about my day. And two weeks later, this was actually the positive beta and this was my daughter. We didn't know at the time. And so the history says you have not even been there on the day your daughter was conceived.
When I'm angry with him, I remind him, you know, you were not even there when she was conceived.
[00:17:56] Speaker A: Well, the important part of him was there.
[00:18:00] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. Just what we needed.
So, yeah, that's a running joke amongst us. And so the beta was positive right away. It was much higher than the first time. It was 226 on the first one. I remember it because it's the figure when it stopped the last time. So I thought, okay, now at the day 14, it's a good figure. And I did. I can't count how many blood draws I did for this one. I continued testing until it was like 35,000 or something. I was so worried. So, so worried. I. So you were actually.
I spent the entire pregnancy in a state of constant fear.
Plus, my ob gyn was very busy, so he could not see us for the first scan before week eleven. Can you believe it? I was left in the dark for, like, almost two months.
We were just thinking, every day that goes, bye, there is no blood, so it means we're okay. But we had no idea. No idea. And I don't know why. I did not want to go anywhere else to have the first scan. I wanted to have him.
I don't know why I did not make that mistake the second time around.
[00:19:21] Speaker A: Sorry.
[00:19:23] Speaker B: But we waited and we came for the scan and he told us. Why didn't you come earlier? I was like, well, tell that to your secretary.
And she was already fully formed at this stage, you know, like, we could really see the shape of a real tiny baby. He could measure the neck. He could look at the basic organs, the heartbeat and everything. So it was a very nice moment for us to discover her for the first time.
[00:19:54] Speaker A: Did you cry? Did you cry?
[00:19:56] Speaker B: No, I did not. I did not. My husband was very, very moved, very emotional.
I was just very relieved she was alive. So it was like, okay, I can breathe now a little bit until the next scan.
[00:20:13] Speaker A: How was the pregnancy? Were you feeling okay? Were you sick?
[00:20:17] Speaker B: How was the. Well, actually, the pregnancy itself was going well. I was a bit tired and nauseous. I had morning sickness every day, all day. So, like, daily sickness.
The issue was my autoimmune disease, which was supposed to be, I would say, in remission during pregnancy, acted out. So I had a very bad inflammation in my eye called uveitis, and I had to take cortisone to make it go away or under control. But the problem is that it's actually.
It got worse, basically, and I even had to have an injection in my eye. That was extremely traumatic.
[00:21:06] Speaker A: We were actually what you need during pregnancy.
[00:21:09] Speaker B: Right, exactly. Where we were studying if no birthing, because I wanted to have a natural birth. And the ophthalmologist, she could not get to do the induction. I would not let her touch my eye. So I called my husband and told him, I need you. You need to kind of hypnotize me to do it. And he did, and it worked. And she could do it. It's quite amazing. Yes. This worked like a charm. We had no idea we could use it for anything else than childbirth. But it turns out it's a fantastic tool for giving you the kind of deep relaxation you need to be in to have this kind of very unpleasant procedure take place. So this was something that had to be monitored every day, every day, every other week, basically. And besides that, well. Well, this gave me gestational diabetes from the cortisone because it was messing with my hormones, and so I could not regulate my blood sugar properly. So at the end of the pregnancy, I had to do the daily dextrose and insulin injections and so on. So, yeah, the end was not very funny. I had a big asiatic as well. So, yeah, I was not the glowing, beautiful, beautiful pregnant lady, but, yeah, I was okay, but very anxious. Very, very anxious at every scan, really. I was, like, spying the heartbeat. That was the first thing I was trying to see in the monitor. Okay. Is she still alive in my belly? Of course. As soon as I could feel her kick and move, I felt much better. And she moved a lot. Probably also to reassure me.
When she was kicking and moving and I could feel her, I was okay. But as soon as she got a bit too quiet, I was starting to freak out. I even went to the ER once because I thought I did not feel her for too long and I was freaking out. So, yeah, having pregnancy right after a loss is a very hard experience, unfortunately.
[00:23:21] Speaker A: Then. Then you at some stage must have given birth.
[00:23:24] Speaker B: Yes, I have. She was late. She was supposed to be a Christmas miracle. She was due on the 25 December, but I guess she did not want to share her birthday with Jesus. So she waited a bit more.
And it was also a fear. I did not want to be induced because I wanted to have my natural birth. So an induction was not really compatible with that birth plan. And I was praying and also tried everything for her to come out. The acupuncture moksa, the yoga postures, chiropractor. I did everything yet again, we just did not do the version because she was breech. I forgot to mention she was breech until very late. And they told me, no, we don't do vaginal birth for breech babies. You will have to have a c section. So also that was something I really did not want to have. And at the really last scan, like week 39, we saw that she had turned around and she was facing the way out. So she was in the right position, but still she was late. And I was supposed to be induced at 40 weeks and six days, and she was born at 40 weeks and five days.
[00:24:47] Speaker A: It's like, this is a story of my second son.
[00:24:51] Speaker B: But she came on her own terms. 19 hours of labor, but very soft at the beginning, of course, and the birth I wanted, and the stuff was super supportive. This was also kind of a revenge, you know, from my body. Like, you're capable of doing something really amazing. You've grown this child, you've created all the bones and the blood and all the tissue in her, and now you gave birth to her on your own. Well, with a lot of help from my husband and with all the techniques we had worked on together. But I did it, you know, they did not have to cut me open and take her out. This was something very important for me. So I was very happy about that.
[00:25:38] Speaker A: Okay, so then you had the baby. All happy parents, right? And then how old was she? My counting skills are really lousy. So you will have to tell me, how old was she when you decided you want another baby?
[00:25:53] Speaker B: Well, she was. I think we said, okay, we will start trying again after she's one, because we don't know how long this will take and if we need to do treatments again. So we were thinking, okay, she will turn one. We stop having a contraception, because since we didn't know why this did not work, we were still being careful the first year. We did not want to have them too close age gap.
Retrospectively, this seems a bit silly to think that, but anyway, we can't know the future. So she. She turned one and we just stopped, I would say protecting ourselves. So we were not actively trying, but not actively preventing a pregnancy. And actually, four months later, I got pregnant. And I could tell. I could feel it in my body before I took the test.
I don't know, it was really something which felt familiar, and I could feel there was something there. I did a test for the first time. It was like a spontaneous, unplanned. Not waiting for it, just, okay. I feel a bit odd. I want to do a test. I did it on my own. I wanted to surprise my husband with it because we never had this surprise, you know, the spontaneous pregnancy.
And so I took one, which was saying unequivocally, pregnant, not pregnant. No faint lines, whatever. No, it was like, pregnant two, three weeks. Okay, good. So I was really, really overjoyed, and I reached out for some tiny shoes and the test, and I made a little display, and we had this baby sign book where it says baby. So I had opened it to the page, and I made a little display. And when my husband came home from work, I told him, come. Come and see. And he saw it and he cried. And it was really a beautiful moment for both of us. And we were like, wow, we can do it on our own. It's amazing, you know, it's fantastic. And it's true what they said. Like, the first pregnancy can be very healing, and maybe it was just something in your mind that was nothing, right? And now we have unlocked it and it's working, and we can make babies on our own. So we were really, really, really happy. And so we went to my family a few days later. I got to tell my parents, even though it was very early on, but, you know, as soon as I am french, so as soon as I stop drinking wine, they get suspicious. So when I said, no, I'm not having any champagne now, they were like, do you have something to tell us. And it's my parents, so I could not hide this from them anyway. And I'm happy I told them because also they were there, you know, when things went bad, because they did, unfortunately. And yes, unfortunately, a few weeks. I had the appointment with the gynaecologist around the end of week seven. And on the day of the appointment, I was in a call with my team, my whole team at the time. We were working fully from home still. It was. Yeah, Covid measures. And I had a cold and I sneezed. And as soon as I sneezed, I could, like, feel something detach.
And I looked just down and I saw blood, and I just cut down the computer. I said, I'm sorry, I have an emergency, I have to go. And I ran to the toilets and I was covered in blood, hemorrhaging.
It was everywhere. And my husband was working just in the other room, and he saw me and he was on the call as well. And I showed him my hand. My hand was full of blood. And I think he understood right away what was happening. And basically he was there with me just holding my hand as I was miscarrying on the spot. And it's still painful now. Sorry.
[00:30:03] Speaker A: No, I can. I also want to cram because I feel you. It's always. It's horrible.
No matter what. Yeah, it's a loss.
[00:30:14] Speaker B: So, yeah, a couple of hours later, we were supposed to go to this gynecologist appointment to do the first scan. So instead of being a very happy moment, I came to the practice and the secretary immediately saw something was wrong. And I told her, I think I'm miscarrying. I'm really losing a lot of blood. And so I waited for my turn. It seemed like an eternity to be in that waiting room. And I saw the doctor and we did the ultrasound and she told me, I'm sorry, but yes, everything is coming out basically now.
[00:30:51] Speaker A: So was it the same doctor or did you change in the mean?
[00:30:55] Speaker B: No. Well, I had an appointment with my own doctor, but it was again around week ten or something, and I could not wait this time around. I really wanted to have an early ultrasound also because it was a natural pregnancy, so I really wanted to date it to be sure of when we made the baby. And so I took an appointment on doctor now with another doctor I had never met before, but she was very nice. She was a very, very nice lady. And, yeah, she told me, I'm sorry, I can only see on the scan that everything is detaching and going away. So unfortunately, it's a pregnancy loss, and I'm a redus negative. So I needed to go to the ER anyway to have a shot to prevent antibodies to arrive and so on. So this was a very terrible, terrible day. And then, of course, I had to tell my parents. And we did not say anything to our daughter. She was too young. So anyway, we did not have at least to explain it to her, but she just felt we were very sad. And this gave us hope in a way. We were like, okay, it worked. It can work again. And so I asked the doctor, okay, when can we start trying again? And she said, well, as soon as everything is cleared in your uterus and there is no debris left or anything, you're good to go. And you have higher odds. There was research, and you have higher odds of conceiving right after a loss. So you can try again very soon.
But the following months, she would see me every month. And unfortunately, it took time for my body to really clear everything. And so we had to wait and wait and wait. And we had this appointment with the fertility doctor anyway, planned because we thought, okay, we give it six months on our own, and then if nothing happens, we will see her again. So I went. We went to this appointment anyway, a few months later, and we explained what had happened, and she told us, look, okay, now you're a bit older, so we don't want to waste too much time. But, well, if you were. If it was the first time you come to me and you did not have this history, I would go tell you to go straight to iv.
But since you had success with iuis and you had a spontaneous pregnancy, we can try iuis again this time around. So, yeah, in the course of would say, one and a half, two years, we tried iuis again.
We could only do three because I got Covid, then my husband got Covid. You have to wait because Covid and high fever is really affecting the. The body and the sperm in particular. So it takes three months for the sperm to regenerate and to heal from the fever. So we had very long waits in between each attempt, and each attempt was negative. And we thought, okay, now we have to speed things up. You know, the forties are coming very soon around the corner. So we made the appointments and started discussing going through IVF.
And we did IVF in 2022.
So we did the steam and the egg retrieval, and I guess the dosage was kind of too high. So they retrieved 29 eggs.
[00:34:40] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:34:41] Speaker B: Yeah. I was having hyper stimulation syndrome. Very bloated, very sick. I was really tired of. And the doctor told me right away, usually when there is this high amount of eggs, they are not good quality. So don't get your hopes up. If you have maybe five, six embryos at the end, it will be great.
So really, this does not mean it worked very well. On the contrary, it's like a lot of them could be immature or bad quality. And this is what happened, actually. I mean, we were extremely lucky to have six embryos at the end of. But my body was in such a state, we could not transfer any fresh embryo right away. So we had to wait until the HSO was better.
And we made, in total four attempts. So the first three ones were negative. They took the best embryos. We had best quality day five, grade aa, super good. And it was not working. And I wanted really to be an actor of this journey. So I challenged them a lot. I asked a lot of questions. I asked to change the protocol to go from a fully medicated cycle to a fully natural cycle. Then we found an in between with a trigger shot. But it was my body doing the work, and every time was a failure. And we were really getting to terms with just having a family of three and having just one child and being happy that way. And like you said, it takes sometimes one person. And on the day of the force transfer, it was a doctor we had never met before. We didn't know her at all. And she came in the room with a big smile. She was glowing. She was radiant. She was really, I don't know, positive. Like, oh, it's such a great day to make a baby today, or I don't remember if she really said that or it was just in my head, but I could feel it in her whole attitude that she was very positive and she was making jokes and. And I told her, do you have tips or what can I do to make it work? Because we. It's the fourth time and we don't believe anymore. And I just, you know, I don't know. And she told me, well, I would actually be a very rich doctor if I had the answer to that. But didn't they tell you this is the. What? This is the one that's going to give you your baby? In joking, you know, like, she was laughing and we were laughing in the room with her and was like, okay, sorry, we didn't know. We didn't know. We had to wait four times for it to work, you know? Okay. And so she did the transfer and she showed us everything, and everything went very smoothly. We could see the tiny bubble on the screen blinking. And we had the day off. We had this tradition. Every transfer, we took a day off. We went to the restaurant with my husband to have a good lunch and no work, just two of us. And so we had a good lunch, and we were talking about her and say, well, you know what? I don't know if this will work, but at least we had a good time.
It was not mechanical, cold, too sad and a bit desperate. It was fun, and it was a good moment. It was a nice momentous. And it was almost the last attempt because we had decided for the last two embryos, we would implant both of them together and then be done with it and never try again. So we were really at the end of the journey. And guess what? That's my son.
That's my son.
She was right. It was the one.
[00:38:30] Speaker A: Yeah, it's. Well, so congratulations. He's still a baby. So I can say that because it's lovely. And for the doctors, I have really a very similar experience with my doctor because I had, like, two boys, and in between them, I had two miscarriages, and the first one was missed miscarriage. So I had to go to the hospital so that they gave me medication, too, because you know, when. But just for the listeners, miscarriage is that the baby doesn't develop anymore, but your body doesn't react to it. So my body continued sort of all the pregnancy symptoms, but there was no heartbeat. So the doctor, she was really super. She asked me, she said, you have several options. You can either go out and let it happen naturally, or I can give you a pill and you go to the hospital. We do it under supervision. Or you. Yes. Or you can do the curettage, which I didn't want, but I really wanted the baby out. I was in such a state that I was like, no, please get it out of me. And. And she was so understanding. She, you know, here in Luxembourg, this is really not the case. She herself called the hospital to. To arrange a thing, and then I didn't. Okay. I said, okay, so this is happening. It's fine. And I. Next time, it will work better. And then I go to the hospital, and I didn't realize, but it was the same place where I had my first child, you know? So there were all the babies, you know, it's like the maternity work. Yeah. So there were all the newborbane babies, and I was like. And the doctor, what she did, she. She put her arm around me and she told me, no worries, the next one will be yours.
And this was like, I mean, maybe it wasn't super professional because, of course, she cannot promise me, but it was really something that made. Made my day. And then, okay, I actually had another miscarriage, but then I did have my son, who is now five. So. But it's. It's a really, really such a difference if you have a people who support you and know what you're going through or, you know, are understanding. Because on the other hand, then when I got pregnant with now my son, I had also, like, at the beginning, I felt the same way as the previous time when I miscarried. So I was panicking, and I made an appointment in a place which is also like an infertility treatment. And I didn't know them. And I came there and I said, yeah, I just really want to scan to be sure because my doctor wasn't available, you know, to know what's going on. And so the doctor was doing the scan and he said, no, there is the heartbeat. The baby is fine.
[00:41:21] Speaker B: I'm.
[00:41:21] Speaker A: And like, for the moment, he said, I was like, what the.
[00:41:26] Speaker B: You know, why would you say that?
[00:41:28] Speaker A: Like, yeah, now my son is five, he's fine. And, you know, but this was not the thing to say. I mean, if you're in this line of business. Okay. So I never went there again. I can apply to my, to my doctor, and she's like, I mean, this is. She's an angel. And she really made it a way of a different experience. But. So. And that pregnancy, how was that? Were you?
[00:41:53] Speaker B: Well, I made some changes. First of all, I got mental health help. I started, actually, before he was conceived, because after my daughter was born, I thought the fear would go away. You know, she was out in the world. She was out of my body. It was not only on me to keep her alive and well, but, no, unfortunately, becoming a mother has made me very anxious, even more than I was during the pregnancy, to a point where it was hindering my daily life. I was scared to have her in my arm going up the stairs. I was scared I would just let her fall down. I was scared about the cars in the street and that they would run over us. I really had flashes of violent death. Terrible things, really. So I had to do something about it because it had become impossible to live like this. So I sought mental health professional help, and I did, actually, several things. But what helped me most is Emdr.
So this is for trauma. This is actually, it was invented for the veterans from war in the US, and it's now therapy. People are using to heal very big trauma, traumas in life and worked on it for the pregnancy losses and also for these anxiety.
So this helped really, really a lot. And then I also sought the help of a psychologist just to talk, have somebody to talk to every week. And she's been with me through the whole infertility, infertility journey, all the attempts, all the hopes, all the failures, everything. And this made a world of difference during the whole process of making the baby and then the pregnancy. And even now, she's still helping me. And this is something I really strongly recommend for people going through this, because having someone, you can be unfiltered, completely unfiltered, and just let it out. Everything you have, all the worry, the anger, the sadness and the joy, everything, all your emotions, this makes a world of difference. So the pregnancy was actually much less eventful. I still had gestational diabetes, but for me it was like, yeah, I know what it is. I don't mind. It's nothing. And I was still a bit anxious at every appointment that everything would be okay, mostly due to my age, because I was 40. And so you get a bit more worried about, you know, nip tests and possible abnormalities and things like that, but everything was okay. It was a little boy.
The funny thing is, actually we transferred one embryo, but on a natural cycle.
And when we did the first scan, the very early one, there was actually two eggs. So we had made a baby on our own as well.
And the embryo that was transferred, it was the worst quality we had. It was a b two. So day five embryo, but b two quality, which is like an early blastocyte, they call it. So we never know. We don't know. Still to this day if the baby we have now is the one we made during the cycle or the transfer, the embryo we had transferred. So we will never know because out of the two eggs, only one continued its journey, but the other one maybe just implanted, you know, as well, and did not develop.
[00:45:50] Speaker A: Interesting.
[00:45:51] Speaker B: So you and I could feel it. I was telling my husband, I think I have twins. You know, I feel extremely exhausted, feel very nauseous. I don't remember feeling that worn out with my daughter, actually, it was. But in the end, only one baby, which was a relief, honestly, I was not ready for twins. I mean, we would have welcomed anything at this point, but, no, it was a relief. We had only one to take care of in the end.
And, yeah, the pregnancy was going well this time around. I had continued the treatment for my autoimmune disease, so I. I did not have any issues with my eyes. But, again, the day came and went of the due date and no baby. And it was during the time, you know, we had this terrible ice alert in the early January.
The stay home text read, alert, don't come out. Stay home. Schools are closed. We will not deliver your mail. And my baby was due on that, of course. And so I had to take care of my eldest. So my mom was supposed to come, and she told me, I'm sorry, but I can't be on the road with this weather, so we have to wait and so on. And with the diabetes, my gynecologist told me, you will not go past the 41 week, so we will induce you on the day before.
And so every day, I was hoping he would come on his own. I wanted also to have a natural birth this time around, and I was waiting and waiting, but, yeah, it was not coming. And my mom came, and we picked up my daughter. They were together. I had the appointment at the maternity and for the induction, basically. And we went. So we said goodbye to my daughter. We took a picture, like, the last time, we are three, and we had the appointment. So it was like checking in in a very strange hotel, because you're not in labor or anything. They just give you your room, and, as you said, you can hear the other babies crying around you, and you still have your big belly with the baby inside, so that's very strange. And they told us, well, it's a busy night, so we have to keep you waiting. We will do the induction a bit later tonight. Okay? So we wait and wait. And finally, it's our turn to make a long story short, they gave us the drugs at something around 1030. And my boy was born at 02:30 a.m. so just a few hours later. And, yeah, it was like a cannonball.
It was really fast. Well, I had told him to be fast because I wanted to go home very soon to be with my daughter.
And he listened, and he was out super quickly, and so I did not even have time to ask for any pain relief because it was so fast. There was no time anyway, and he was out, and he was healthy and great, and we were finally complete, you know, the four of us.
[00:49:12] Speaker A: So now you feel complete, and everything paid off.
I want to ask because it's a. It's a hell of a story. And, you know, they say everything happens for a reason.
Do you? Would you? Would, you know what? If you believe this, or if somebody asks, so what was the reason why you had to go through all this. What do you think it was the reason?
[00:49:35] Speaker B: I believe that, too. I think we.
Yeah, everything happens for a reason. I think we're not the same people we would have been in 2015, for sure. This experience has changed us, made us wiser in a way, adjusted our expectations, and put the focus on what really matters. I think maybe we would have lost ourselves in frivolities and lots of unnecessary baby items and, I don't know, very futile things. And, no, what was really important is to be a family, to have a healthy child, and that's it. Whether it's boy or girl, it doesn't matter. What matters is they are healthy and happy, and that's it, basically.
[00:50:27] Speaker A: That they are there, right?
[00:50:29] Speaker B: Exactly. Yes, that they are there. And for our second child, it was a bit different because we had started this morning journey of not having another child, and we were coming to terms with being just the three of us and being happy this way. So he feels like he's the cherry on the cake, you know, we're very grateful that he finally chose to come to us.
[00:50:55] Speaker A: When it comes to your relationship with your husband, for me, from outside, it seems like that it made you stronger and your relationship. Is it the case?
[00:51:06] Speaker B: It is, yes, I think so. I mean, this journey can either destroy the couple or make you closer and stronger. And fortunately for us, it's our case.
I think my husband was very frustrated that he could not do more, because in the end, the woman is getting through all the treatments and the discomfort and the hormones and the injections and the bruising and the emotional roller coaster. A lot of it is done by the woman. And besides, I would say giving the cells, they can't do much more physically, but it can make a whole difference psychologically if you have someone in your corner who also gives you a bit of slack when you're not yourself because you hyped on hormones and crying over nothing or being angry. So it's very important to have your partner, I would say, stick with you and bear with you in these moments where you're going through something very difficult. And so for us, it was the case. It was the case through the whole pregnancy. And my husband, he was very involved in also the birthing process. I like to call him my doula, because he really, for my daughter and my son, the midwives barely came to visit us because he was doing all the work. He was massaging me. We had done aptonomy. We had done the hypnobirthing. He was there at all the preparation sessions.
And when the baby came, I was exclusively breastfeeding. And I've been breastfeeding a long time because I breastfed my daughter three and a half years, and my son is fully breastfed as well. And we do not foresee any premature, I would say, weaning or anywhere, anything like that. And he found also his place as a father to a breastfed baby, which is not always easy, but he has bonded differently with the children, and he's been there for them in every other possible way than feeding until the day, of course, they start eating solids. So he's been there. He wanted even to do more, if he could have done more, he really wanted to take his share and do as much as he can to support the journey.
[00:53:36] Speaker A: Yeah, I think it's really also great that to like to pass the message, as in, yeah, if. Even if you cannot help as a man, you know, because you cannot be pregnant for us. Yeah. Right.
[00:53:48] Speaker B: This is.
[00:53:48] Speaker A: This is our place. But that really just like, come and hug and don't ask questions or. It's very important. It sounds like nothing, but it can be everything, as we said. Yes, with the doctors, really, the, like, just. Just be there. You know, you don't even have to talk. Just be there. And as you said, be in your.
[00:54:08] Speaker B: Corner and also have the same expectations, be on the same page.
So communication, I think, is key also, when you're making all those attempts. Okay, how many do we do? When do we stop? When do we draw the line that we are over and are we on the same page? That if this does not work, work, we will stop trying. Can you live with that? Can you live with basically giving up the family of your dreams? These are big decisions and they cannot be done separately. You have to be on the same page or one will resent the other. And if it does not explode on the spot, it will years later. So communication was something very important for us.
[00:54:55] Speaker A: Yeah. So it seems you certainly see the, like, what it brought you, what positive. And I will. I see also one big positive thing, and that is that we are talking about it right here, right now and passing the message to the world that, you know, if you experience infertility issues, it's. It's really great to talk about it and not to be ashamed because there is still, like, a stigma around it and, like, I don't know, stigma of failure or something like this. So I just want to say that both me and Elise, we are big advocates for talking about the issue and making it normal topic for conversation because it's a medical issue as any other, and we need more support in this for people who are going through this. So I hope that this podcast can contribute to somebody's well being and a little bit more hope on their journey, because we have really two beautiful lights at the end of the tunnel in Elise's case and well in mind also too.
On that note, I think that because I see that your son is coming to needs your attention.
[00:56:18] Speaker B: A no, it's okay. He's in the room. He's smiling, he's happy.
[00:56:24] Speaker A: Well, that's the best thing. I wanted to ask a million of questions, but we are a little running out of time, so maybe we can make another episode one day. So we will see about that. So is there anything else that any other message that you would like to still say about your journey and about the whole infertility topic in general?
[00:56:48] Speaker B: Well, I think there is a community, like you mentioned earlier, this is a great resource. It's a lonely journey. It can be isolating on many levels, because I was a lot on those forums online, seeking a community, seeking like minded people, going through the same thing, supporting each other every step of the way.
And I could see some people are forgetting to live while they're in the midst of it. They don't go out, they don't go to the restaurant, or they don't advocate for themselves during the journey. They just place their whole faith in the hands of the doctors and hope for the best. Like every word they say is gospel. I just want to say first, don't stay alone. Seek this community, whether it's online or offline.
Don't be afraid of judgment. Nowadays, this has become extremely common. And when I started to talk about my losses, I realized around me, so many women have been through it, including in my own family. And as soon as you start talking about it, everyone has a thing to say and people, they want to talk about it, but they are ashamed. Maybe there is a bit of guilt that it's their fault and they were not capable of keeping a baby inside. Well, no, I believe in nature. I trust nature. I think it's very well done. And sometimes there is just some abnormalities from the start and this could have never been healthy to. So they go away for a reason sometimes, maybe not. We will never know. This is still a lot of mystery. And be active. Inform yourselves. Read about the woman's cycles. Educate yourselves. There's a lot of resources now we have a lot of Instagram pages, which are extremely helpful. A lot of resources are out there to challenge the doctors and to say, oh, I read about this. What do you think?
One thing I will say is that I did not win my daughter when we made our, well, her little brother. If you ask the stance of chl on going through infertility while breastfeeding, they are completely against it. It's forbidden.
Well, they did not think to ask me the question three years later, so I lied by omission. But I told my doctor after I was pregnant, when I got pregnant, I told, by the way, I'm still breastfeeding. And she was like, but you were breastfeeding the whole time? I said, yes, I was. This is something I've become a strong advocate of breastfeeding by accident, because I thought, yeah, I'm going to breastfeed six months and, you know, like, like you should, and that's it. And turned out, I thought, wow, that's fantastic. It's, I'm lazy, so I love it that there is nothing to wash. It's always ready, it's at the right temperature. You just have nothing to think about, you know, no mental charge of any kind.
We had a rough start. I would not say it was easy. We had a rough start, but I fought for it. And when it was finally smooth, I was like, no, I'm not going to give up now that it's very smooth. It's a shame. So we continued. And to heal my eye, to also treat my autoimmune disease, have daily treatments and I had to check compatibility of everything. And you would not believe the number of doctors who are completely uneducated about breastfeeding and about compatibility of treatments. And if you listen to them, they will tell you to wean all the time. No, but you have to wean. You can't tell you get that drug. And I had really to fight and advocate.
[01:00:53] Speaker A: Most cErtain, yes.
[01:00:55] Speaker B: And there are actually resources out there, like Tancia, like the french site Le Crat. There are lots of resources to check compatibility of drugs and there are even online support groups to do infertility treatments and still breastfeed your child. So we don't have to choose necessarily. Sometimes we do. Sometimes there are treatments which are not compatible or pathologies which require to wean, but many, many, in many, many cases, you don't need to. This is to say it's the same for infertility treatments. There's a lot out there, a lot of hospitals and clinics, they stick to the same experience protocols, but sometimes you have to challenge them. There is a law that they cannot do something to us that we do not consent to, and we need to enforce it more. And to say, no, this is not okay.
I know some ladies, the transfers are extremely painful for them. In some other countries, they do anesthesia so that the transfer will be smoother and the lady will not be in pain. It's something I do not think is done here in Luxembourg. And they still have a long way to go to also sometimes reach some, I would say, standards. They are great at what they do, and I'm internally grateful for them for helping us get both our children. But I really challenged them, especially on the artificial cycles.
I said, no, I want to do a natural one. And they were like, oh, but we will need to monitor you every other day. I don't mind, I don't care. Let's do it. Let's try. Because I cannot think this will work if we keep doing the same thing over and over and over again. So this is really something I want to emphasize. Be an actor, educate yourself, inform yourself and fight for yourself. And then you can say, I've given my everything. And if in the end it did not work, at least you have no regrets. You've tried everything.
[01:03:01] Speaker A: Yeah, that's a good point. I just wanted to say, I'm sure that in searchl, which actually, I think I didn't mention it, stands for the Santa Hospitalier de Luxembourg. It's a hospital in Luxembourg. I think they are happy that you didn't want a third child.
I think that they are like, yeah, okay, good. It worked out. Now she will leave it alone.
[01:03:23] Speaker B: Doctor. She was very. Because she was like, you could. You could have been a bit more forward about the breastfeeding thing. And I told her, well, I would not have changed your mind. So, you know, kept it for myself, checked all compatibilities. I did not put my daughter in danger by taking drugs, which were not safe. I did something safe on my own terms. And, yeah, if it failed, maybe I could have attributed the failure to me and my decision to be stubborn and to continue, but at least it's my decision, no one else's.
[01:03:54] Speaker A: That's good. Okay. I think you also said something very important. Really find people who are in the same situation, because it's. It's really. I found that the community that actually we, we met in is. I see that the ladies, they are like the experts, because some of them went through so many things. They. They know just like you, you know, more than I would say an average doctor. If you go to an average ob gyn, they wouldn't know as much as you because you were through all this. You read all the books and there are ladies knowledgeable about that. They give so much advice or also the. For the mental journey, because the mentally, this is crazy. Like what you are going through with all the hope and then failure and then hope and failure. And it's. It's. It's mentally really exhausting anxiety then I think this is no exception that this happens. But so I think the community is really key and so people don't feel alone and they can find help on many levels there. Okay. So, Elise, I will not keep you much longer. Thanks so much for coming and sharing your journey and all your advice and tips and tricks, and enjoy your breastfeeding and your.
[01:05:07] Speaker B: Thank you.
[01:05:09] Speaker A: And thanks very much for coming and maybe see you.
[01:05:13] Speaker B: Thank you for having me.
[01:05:15] Speaker A: Thanks so much. Bye. Bye.
[01:05:17] Speaker B: Bye.
[01:05:25] Speaker A: So that went well. Thanks for joining us today in interview with you. I hope you enjoyed the time as much as we did and that it brought something positive to your day and to your life. Don't forget to get in touch if you want to be my next guest or if you have anything else you want to share with me. The contact details are of in the description of the episode. There is a link to a Facebook post where you can share your thoughts and all the contacts. Do not hesitate to follow the interview with your Facebook page or me on Instagram.
Remember, both Yaska and Yoast are spelled with j's, the european quirks, right?
Anyway, go ahead and follow my social media so that you do not miss anything exciting. I look forward to hearing from you and to possibly having the next interview with you.
[01:06:39] Speaker C: Will not do.
I'm asleep without again waiting when it's all going to fight stop a drop in there some will always stay dreaming like you and I, you and I Ramdez.
